Max level of planters for each player

[Futrex]

I would like to shout out @Vonbloodfor coming up with this idea literally a few minutes ago in chat. 

I would like to hear your thoughts on having a max level of planters for each player, as having 30-40+ is a bit ridiculous if you think about it. As we know this wipe has brought in loads of people, including myself, this had a massive performance hit on the current equipment the server is running on.

Anyways what I'm trying to get at is doing this will definitely help server performance, as some people have well over 40+ planters currently.

Edited January 17, 2021 by Futrex

[Vonblood]

I heard that someone had a farm of 350+ large planters on the us Scourge, I dont know if it's  true but that is way excessive for 1 player to have.

 Maybe have a max limit on large planters would be a good idea especially if the population lvl is higher than it has ever been. My 2 cents

[Futrex]

Just now, Vonblood said:

I heard that someone had a farm of 350+ large planters on the us Scourge, I dont know if it's  true but that is way excessive for 1 player to have.

 Maybe have a max limit on large planters would be a good idea especially if the population lvl is higher than it has ever been. My 2 cents

I should've clarified which one I meant when I said planter, I meant the large planter. Thank you for pointing that out @Vonblood:P

[GREENG1ANT]

I'll add to this as well. I've played on modded minecraft servers and even been moderator on some. I'm not entirely sure how large scale operations effect server performance on rust but in minecraft it was insane. The more entities you constantly have ticking and operating really negatively effect server performance as a whole. This can be seen as evident even on this server  (US) Scourge. Remember when @death disabled the quarries because the instances were causing issues? Literal thousands of instances always running in the background, no wonder it was causing issues. Than you go into the things not being personally instanced, like farms, i.e. planter boxes and composters. There are some mega farms on this server that are absolutely redicoulus in size. Especially when people can just "illegal stack" several hundred thousand wood or stone into the tc and upkeep becomes a non issue. I think setting a "soft" cap in place would be a good thing for these sorts of places. You really don't have to look far to find some of these operations. 200+ planters constantly growing, 200+ composters constanly going, in no conceivable manner can these sorts of things ever be good for server performance. Players really should be held responsible for the types of lag they produce with things like this. It's literally just a matter of them not wanting to wait around (on a monthly wipe server no less) to make absolutely absurd amounts of scrap, entirely for the sake of credit farming. But I suppose if this seen as a none issue, whats to stop everyone from doing it, other than the players themselves.

[AlexaNightfire]

I fully agree. I touched on the idea of limiting farms in my post yesterday at this link here:

 

Even if there is no set rule in place, if we each take charge and temporarily reduce what might be our usual farm size when there are way less players around, it might go a long way to help. Nobody needs millions of scrap, 100s of large planters, fish traps, and/or composters.

[Futrex]

7 minutes ago, alexanightfire said:

I fully agree. I touched on the idea of limiting farms in my post yesterday at this link here:

 

Even if there is no set rule in place, if we each take charge and temporarily reduce what might be our usual farm size when there are way less players around, it might go a long way to help. Nobody needs millions of scrap, 100s of large planters, fish traps, and/or composters.

100% agree, I should've touched on the topic of composters too, as I know people have quite a few of those as well. I was going to start my own farm until I found another player to rent one from, as that gives me my personal farm space without having to build a new building, wire up electricity, and all that good stuff. If more players tend to do this then build their own farm, it would definitely help out. But, not everyone wants to use a farm someone else built, which is their choice and I respect that decision. I don't see an issue limiting these are you can get PLENTY of scrap from just a few planters/composters

[SKUDRUNNER]

Please please please limit the number of planter boxes per player. I dont care if they're using large or small, because if we limit one, they'll just substitute the other.

 

+ performance

-  massive rectangular structures stretching into the sky, being complete eyesores

[souptime_365]

1 hour ago, alexanightfire said:

I fully agree. I touched on the idea of limiting farms in my post yesterday at this link here:

 

Even if there is no set rule in place, if we each take charge and temporarily reduce what might be our usual farm size when there are way less players around, it might go a long way to help. Nobody needs millions of scrap, 100s of large planters, fish traps, and/or composters.

Root cause analysis. 

What causes people to want to build massive farms? 

To get scrap from cloth, to make pure teas, and acquire points. 

Why do people need so many points?  >The incredible cost it takes for TP, minis, attack heli signals, etc.

Why do people need to stack so much scrap?  >To sell for points, buy resources to make explosives, and to feed their tom foolery.

Why do people need massive farms for pure teas?  >Because they're absolutely worth it, they cost a lot of berries to make, and they're semi lucrative to sell for scrap.

The logical first step to solve a lot of these problems is to rebalance the cost of things in the black market and to decrease the cost of teleporting.  The whole idea loading your backpack with your inventory so you can kill yourself for a point free TP is a indicator that something is wrong with the intended functions of the mods we use.

Right now it costs the equivalent of 50,000 scrap worth of points to call in a heli.  If someone is farming hemp exclusively to be able to buy a heli every once in a while that's 400,000 cloth to buy one.  You'd have to harvest a single planter with perfect clone 635 times to get that much cloth and even 9 Planters would be ~70 harvests.  A single 200 point teleport is the equivalent of 20,000 frags or 80,000 wood... That's just silly.

I know some people enjoy the large farmer RP and that's fine.  If people want to take it that far, they should be able to do so but the mods we have on the server that are supposed to be a benefit have become a burden for the average player just to experience and are likely the reason people build large farms and scrap generating schemes like composters.  

imo, a point system rebalance is the most logical first step to combat large farms that may be causing server instability.

[AlexaNightfire]

I disagree with most points of your analysis souptime_365. To start with, the black market is not there for necessity, it is there for convenience. My understanding is that it was created as another way for people to earn credits, and spend them on items readily available so that you don’t have to find them on the map (convenience), or have to wait to take a public heli (convenience and reward). It was introduced before there were places on the map that sold transport, so that a player didn’t have to spend hours trying to find a boat or mini. It was also created as a way for people to get something back from excess resources at the end of wipe, as people would find they had amassed large amounts of resources with nothing to spend them on. In this way, the black market was rewarding players for their usual efforts and playtime by giving them credits back in return. I don’t think that buying things from the black market, or using distress signals, was intended to be a common daily occurrence for everyone, but actually a form of convenience and/or reward.

Before the black market was created, people would have to find other ways to get transport, find salvaged hammers, and would grind up zombie kills and time on server instead to get credits. In this way, people were more aware of the work it took to get credits and their credit usage and therefore would usually be much smarter with respawns, revives, and teleports. The game was more of a grind and harder in some ways: more about surviving and figuring out ways to get what you need and how to get there. Now, with Air Wolf, Fishing Villages, Ranch/Barn as well as car spawns, and mini/car taxi services, it is no longer difficult at all to find transport.

Another point is that most people who create massive farms, or massive scrap endeavours, do so in order to get high amounts of credits that are not really necessary for your day-to-day teleport or revive cost. They already have tons of credits, and do it as a more passive way to get scrap, an alternative to the active ways (monuments, zombie killing, fishing with rods, etc.) to ensure they are always making scrap when not online. I totally get it; it’s fun and fulfilling to look down and see boxes filled with scrap, or have hundreds of thousands of credits available. Therefore I really don’t think that making things cheaper on black market would help: a lot of players would still be making massive farms anyways with the goal of making credits and profit.

Yes there are some exceptions: newer players who are low on credits, creating big farms to farm scrap to trade in for credits. But for the most part what I have personally observed is that it is not the case: it is mostly veterans and those with lots of credits already who know the system and take advantage of the ability to build farms, compost farms, and fish farms of unlimited size, as is allowed right now, and trade in for massive amounts of credits. Futrex presented a great idea; having community farms for use, or buddying up with your friends and/or team and using the same farming facilities.

Home teleports were already capped out at 200 credits max a day each /home. Even teleporting to home is a convenience, not a necessity, so I agree with this cost incurred. I believe Death has been looking into re-balancing the black market as well in the near future, so all this may be a moot point after all. Plus, if a player really gets stuck being unable to revive or teleport, or needs transport, there is almost always someone ready and willing to help in chat.

However, in terms of the current subject, I  really don’t think a black market rebalance would fix the problem of massive farms, and unnecessary large amounts of planters, fish traps, composers per person. I think the last few months has show that without a limit, there is still a lot of of people who if they can, they will build those massive lagfests, be it 100s of planters, fish traps, and/or composters, as it is ‘allowed’ right now.

[Futrex]

1 hour ago, souptime_365 said:

Root cause analysis. 

What causes people to want to build massive farms? 

To get scrap from cloth, to make pure teas, and acquire points. 

Why do people need so many points?  >The incredible cost it takes for TP, minis, attack heli signals, etc.

Why do people need to stack so much scrap?  >To sell for points, buy resources to make explosives, and to feed their tom foolery.

Why do people need massive farms for pure teas?  >Because they're absolutely worth it, they cost a lot of berries to make, and they're semi lucrative to sell for scrap.

The logical first step to solve a lot of these problems is to rebalance the cost of things in the black market and to decrease the cost of teleporting.  The whole idea loading your backpack with your inventory so you can kill yourself for a point free TP is a indicator that something is wrong with the intended functions of the mods we use.

Right now it costs the equivalent of 50,000 scrap worth of points to call in a heli.  If someone is farming hemp exclusively to be able to buy a heli every once in a while that's 400,000 cloth to buy one.  You'd have to harvest a single planter with perfect clone 635 times to get that much cloth and even 9 Planters would be ~70 harvests.  A single 200 point teleport is the equivalent of 20,000 frags or 80,000 wood... That's just silly.

I know some people enjoy the large farmer RP and that's fine.  If people want to take it that far, they should be able to do so but the mods we have on the server that are supposed to be a benefit have become a burden for the average player just to experience and are likely the reason people build large farms and scrap generating schemes like composters.  

imo, a point system rebalance is the most logical first step to combat large farms that may be causing server instability.

I don't agree that changing the point system will have an affect on the large farms people build.

It wouldn't help because people have the option to build large farms with 100's of planters , I mean if you could who wouldn't for all that scrap and points, right? 

You said it would help to decrease the cost of items, so let's say the heli got cheaper, that one person who had that option to build a big farm with 100's of planters will have a crazy amount of points just to purchase more helis or other items from the black market.

While writing this @alexanightfirehad an excellent reply that I would love to touch on myself.

I completely agree that the black market is here for our convenience, not necessity.

I don't think there is a need to change the teleport to home as @alexanightfiresaid it's capped out at 200, which is actually nice and convenient considering it doesn't take long to get that many points.

While I myself teleport home quite a bit, I've never seen it as a hassle for the points, as I see it as convenient. My favorite thing in the black market and the most convenient thing for me and plenty of others is the minicopter, which cost 1500 points as most of you know. I usually always have enough credits at the end of the day to buy another one ( I usually end up thinking I'm good at flying and sacrificing my poor minicopter to a tree or ground) and considering that I am actually happy with it. Considering I have a way of transporting myself around the map without having to go and buy my transportation or find it I can conveniently type a command and have it delivered right in front of me.

Seeing a change in the black market would be nice to see in the future, but for right now I think it doesn't need to be focused on.

Edited January 17, 2021 by Futrex

[souptime_365]

14 minutes ago, alexanightfire said:

I disagree with most points of your analysis souptime_365. To start with, the black market is not there for necessity, it is there for convenience. My understanding is that it was created as another way for people to earn credits, and spend them on items readily available so that you don’t have to find them on the map (convenience), or have to wait to take a public heli (convenience and reward). It was introduced before there were places on the map that sold transport, so that a player didn’t have to spend hours trying to find a boat or mini. It was also created as a way for people to get something back from excess resources at the end of wipe, as people would find they had amassed large amounts of resources with nothing to spend them on. In this way, the black market was rewarding players for their usual efforts and playtime by giving them credits back in return. I don’t think that buying things from the black market, or using distress signals, was intended to be a common daily occurrence for everyone, but actually a form of convenience and/or reward.

Before the black market was created, people would have to find other ways to get transport, find salvaged hammers, and would grind up zombie kills and time on server instead to get credits. In this way, people were more aware of the work it took to get credits and their credit usage and therefore would usually be much smarter with respawns, revives, and teleports. The game was more of a grind and harder in some ways: more about surviving and figuring out ways to get what you need and how to get there. Now, with Air Wolf, Fishing Villages, Ranch/Barn as well as car spawns, and mini/car taxi services, it is no longer difficult at all to find transport.

Another point is that most people who create massive farms, or massive scrap endeavours, do so in order to get high amounts of credits that are not really necessary for your day-to-day teleport or revive cost. They already have tons of credits, and do it as a more passive way to get scrap, an alternative to the active ways (monuments, zombie killing, fishing with rods, etc.) to ensure they are always making scrap when not online. I totally get it; it’s fun and fulfilling to look down and see boxes filled with scrap, or have hundreds of thousands of credits available. Therefore I really don’t think that making things cheaper on black market would help: a lot of players would still be making massive farms anyways with the goal of making credits and profit.

Yes there are some exceptions: newer players who are low on credits, creating big farms to farm scrap to trade in for credits. But for the most part what I have personally observed is that it is not the case: it is mostly veterans and those with lots of credits already who know the system and take advantage of the ability to build farms, compost farms, and fish farms of unlimited size, as is allowed right now, and trade in for massive amounts of credits. Futrex presented a great idea; having community farms for use, or buddying up with your friends and/or team and using the same farming facilities.

Home teleports were already capped out at 200 credits max a day each /home. Even teleporting to home is a convenience, not a necessity, so I agree with this cost incurred. I believe Death has been looking into re-balancing the black market as well in the near future, so all this may be a moot point after all. Plus, if a player really gets stuck being unable to revive or teleport, or needs transport, there is almost always someone ready and willing to help in chat.

However, in terms of the current subject, I  really don’t think a black market rebalance would fix the problem of massive farms, and unnecessary large amounts of planters, fish traps, composers per person. I think the last few months has show that without a limit, there is still a lot of of people who if they can, they will build those massive lagfests, be it 100s of planters, fish traps, and/or composters, as it is ‘allowed’ right now.

The whole point of mods like TP is to use them.  Yes, blackmarket is a convenience but if Death doesn't intend to have it used as a functional part of the server he should just remove the mods all together and publish a proclamation stating how he wants everyone to play on his servers and he'd be totally within his rights to do so because they're his servers.  

If Death doesn't want people accumulating "Rust wealth" so that people can self-determine how they'd like to play on the server while utilizing said mods, he should remove the mods, add more rules and regulations, and give the admins the additional responsibility of policing peoples play styles. 

If Death doesn't want "Rust-wealthy" people using TP as their main mode of transportation because he has an ideological position on how people should travel on the server then he needs to remove the TP mod.  He should make it clear that people need to utilize vanilla modes of transportation because RP type people get a warm and cozy feeling seeing people out and about on horses and cars and shit.

In my suggestion I clearly stated that it would be a logical first step in addressing an issue.  Baby steps... if that doesn't work, maybe limiting specific entity counts would be a next step but just like real life, blanket bans on things like planters and composters without thoughtful game theory on how it might play out is how you end up with game breaking unintended consequences and blowback.  

The only person who has any right to inflict an ideological position on how people should be playing on the server is Death.

If Death wants to create some sort of visionary authoritarian utopia of a PvE-RP server with community farms and limiting player's ability to self-determine the outcome of the game as designed by FP and the mods currently installed, that's fine too.

 

[SKUDRUNNER]

29 minutes ago, souptime_365 said:

In my suggestion I clearly stated that it would be a logical first step in addressing an issue.  Baby steps... if that doesn't work, maybe limiting specific entity counts would be a next step but just like real life, blanket bans on things like planters and composters without thoughtful game theory on how it might play out is how you end up with game breaking unintended consequences and blowback. 

It's not a blanket ban, it's a limit. I don't even know exactly what number we're all agreeing to limiting them to. But we're not banning anything.
If the issues on the server revolve around entity counts, why would we start with something else that's not even directly related to the issue? You say it's a cause-effect thing, but the Shop isn't what's causing the problems on the server. You're making a deal out of the Shop, which only relates to Farming in theory. Can you provide any actual evidence to back up your claims?

 

We know for a fact at this point that the number of entities is causing issues. Why wouldn't we start with that? It makes no sense to start with something else.

[AlexaNightfire]

35 minutes ago, souptime_365 said:

The whole point of mods like TP is to use them.  Yes, blackmarket is a convenience but if Death doesn't intend to have it used as a functional part of the server he should just remove the mods all together and publish a proclamation stating how he wants everyone to play on his servers and he'd be totally within his rights to do so because they're his servers.  

If Death doesn't want people accumulating "Rust wealth" so that people can self-determine how they'd like to play on the server while utilizing said mods, he should remove the mods, add more rules and regulations, and give the admins the additional responsibility of policing peoples play styles. 

If Death doesn't want "Rust-wealthy" people using TP as their main mode of transportation because he has an ideological position on how people should travel on the server then he needs to remove the TP mod.  He should make it clear that people need to utilize vanilla modes of transportation because RP type people get a warm and cozy feeling seeing people out and about on horses and cars and shit.

In my suggestion I clearly stated that it would be a logical first step in addressing an issue.  Baby steps... if that doesn't work, maybe limiting specific entity counts would be a next step but just like real life, blanket bans on things like planters and composters without thoughtful game theory on how it might play out is how you end up with game breaking unintended consequences and blowback.  

The only person who has any right to inflict an ideological position on how people should be playing on the server is Death.

If Death wants to create some sort of visionary authoritarian utopia of a PvE-RP server with community farms and limiting player's ability to self-determine the outcome of the game as designed by FP and the mods currently installed, that's fine too.

 

To be clear, I was speaking on my own understanding of the black market and its use, from having played before and after it was introduced, and from talking with admins, including Death, and other players about it over many months. Of course, I am not speaking on behalf on anyone else except my own opinions and understanding, and this statement is true for everything else that I say on this forum as well.

In terms of “the whole point of mods like TP is to use them”, I agree with this statement only to a certain extent. Like the blackmarket, they are there for use and convenience, but not to be the main thing you rely on. For instance, the whole reason there is a cost to /home teleporting in the first place is to prevent overuse and encourage other forms of transportation. Similar to how trade cooldowns were introduced: to encourage face-to-face interaction and player shop use, as many people were overusing the /trade mod.

I apologize if my previous post came across against accumulating Rust wealth, or seemed like I was trashing any players or their playstyles. I was merely speaking against overuse of some passive forms of scrap-making (farms, composters, fish farms), that can have negative performance impact in massive quantities.

5 minutes ago, SKUDRUNNER said:

We know for a fact at this point that the number of entities is causing issues. Why wouldn't we start with that? It makes no sense to start with something else.

The black market revamp/re-balance has been mentioned quite a few times as something that is in the works. But as mine, and other’s have mentioned above, it is unlikely to do anything to combat the main issue that is being discussed in this thread, which is the performance impact of massive farms. So I wholeheartedly agree with what Skudrunner just said. It only makes sense that the “first step” that myself and others are proposing involves limiting planters, fish traps, and/or composters. Or perhaps even a blanket entity limit per player. Yes, people should be able to play and enjoy the game they way they want it to, but in some cases, maybe more guidance is needed to make sure a single player, or group, are not having such large negative effects on server performance and creating tons of lag,, sometimes ruining the game experience for other players. Be it rules concerning farms, an entity-limiting mod, or even just focussing on a case-by-case basis on some of the biggest trouble spots or concentrated areas.

[GREENG1ANT]

The only reason soup is so against this is because he's one of the people with 200+ composters. He dosent give a shit about calling in helis or tping a bunch, I'm sure his credits are in the hundreds of thousands. The other day he was talking about loosing 40k scrap to a roll back and how his current composters give him 54k scrap every 9hrs or some shit. Oh no you guys I can't make 130k+ per day because people don't want the server to be as laggy, what ever shall I do.

[souptime_365]

17 hours ago, GREENG1ANT said:

The only reason soup is so against this is because he's one of the people with 200+ composters. He dosent give a shit about calling in helis or tping a bunch, I'm sure his credits are in the hundreds of thousands. The other day he was talking about loosing 40k scrap to a roll back and how his current composters give him 54k scrap every 9hrs or some shit. Oh no you guys I can't make 130k+ per day because people don't want the server to be as laggy, what ever shall I do.

Correct.  U mad?

When's the last time you tossed people free heli signals or bought out an entire vending machine just to make someone's day?

 

[Futrex]

Alright @GREENG1ANTand @souptime_365let's simmer down a bit and not get off the topic at hand.

@GREENG1ANTThe response you posted shouldn't have been said like that in my opinion. While souptime has one of these large farms there is no need to come off the way you did, it just provokes a response and that's exactly what you got.

@souptime_365While what @GREENG1ANTsaid comes off as rude there was no need to respond like that, it fixes nothing and can causes issues.

Like I said when I made the thread I want to hear everyone's opinion, so while some of us don't get along let's not cause a fuss and cramp the thread up with stuff like this.

I have gotten so many great responses so far, so let's keep it that way please.

[souptime_365]

1 minute ago, Futrex said:

Alright @GREENG1ANTand @souptime_365let's simmer down a bit and not get off the topic at hand.

@GREENG1ANTThe response you posted shouldn't have been said like that in my opinion. While souptime has one of these large farms there is no need to come off the way you did, it just provokes a response and that's exactly what you got.

@souptime_365While what @GREENG1ANTsaid comes off as rude there was no need to respond like that, it fixes nothing and can causes issues.

Like I said when I made the thread I want to hear everyone's opinion, so while some of us don't get along let's not cause a fuss and cramp the thread up with stuff like this.

I have gotten so many great responses so far, so let's keep it that way please.

ok dad.  im sorry.

all love for everyone.