Clear definition of what is considered camping added under the FAQs

[BloodyBaroness]

There has been a lot of rowdy player debate (especially on US Scourge) about what is defined as camping. Being able to see the official definition in the FAQs would be very helpful for quick ref in situations where it might not have escalated to needing an admin. Sometimes it's just a discussion and being able to point directly to the FAQ would clear up all of the misinformation floating around. 

[Slippery Mc Nuts]

This is a fantastic suggestion.  I've gotten into arguments about what camping is, especially at launch

[Aurora]

Yes, this information will be added to our FAQs page soon.

[BloodyBaroness]

Excellent! This will help loads in clearing up minor things. Most players are super good about it, but having a one stop information shop landing point on this will be awesome. 

[WastingDisc]

I did oil a lot on 1/14/2021 because no one voiced there opinion in chat to do that monument. I am totally fine with other tagging along or doing it on there own but I never got conformation from anyone yesterday about abusing oil or wanting to take it. If I upset anyone, my apologies, just voice it in chat.

[WastingDisc]

By the way the form of camping I know is when an individual either logs off or waits for loot to respawn in a certain monument.

[NotTheDoctor]

I have a question regarding camping Bradley for example.  I went through launch with the intention of taking Bradley and saw a player standing clearly waiting for Bradley to spawn.  I moved on because I knew this person was waiting.  I have done exactly what that person did in the past, sitting and waiting for Bradley to spawn.  Hearing the talk the last few days I believe I would be considered camping launch.  Going by that logic, the person I walked by was camping as well.

 

So, if we go to launch and Bradley is not there yet, we cannot wait for it to spawn?  We have to move on and come back later?  I am just asking for clarification on this.  

 

Thank you.

 

[Aurora]

21 minutes ago, NotTheDoctor said:

So, if we go to launch and Bradley is not there yet, we cannot wait for it to spawn?  We have to move on and come back later? 

Correct.
https://rustez.com/faq/1-server-faq/#elQuestion-68

[Ouchmousie]

On 1/17/2021 at 5:19 PM, Aurora said:

Correct.
https://rustez.com/faq/1-server-faq/#elQuestion-68

Hi Aurora,

Thanks, that is great. However, it is not enough. As you are aware Rust has gotten quite a surge of new players due to all of the promoting ongoing on Twitch etc... Great for the money grab, bad for our servers. Unfortunately, I cannot agree that I am thrilled to see so many new players because I feel like the RustEZ servers aren't equipped to handle such a surge of new players in terms of short staff (lack of admin presence) and especially lack of clarity in the rules.

The regular/old players often find themselves debating, explaining and repeating server rules to new people several times a day because we do not have a place we can refer them to where it is listed in an unambigious way and completely closed for interpretation. Added on top of it, not even our admins seem to be all on the same page as to what is considered camping and what is not, this doesn't help either. The rules should be enforced all the same by each and every admin.

I wish we could have a clear list of rules, that leaves no room for random interpretation. I'll give you an example of what I think the rules are and you can see my interpretation might be completely different than what the actual rules are and by all means please correct me so that we can maybe use this thread as a reference for the new playerbase.

So at this link we have "Server Rule:  No camping loot rooms, monuments, or any highly concentrated areas." to me this means the following;

1. Players should not camp concentrated loot areas (LS/Bradley, Oil Rig, Patrol Helicopter, Raidable Bases etc.) So this point is clear enough imo but it could still be improvied to make it completely idiot-proof because people are still (even though spawn of Brad is randomized) camping on top of the ticket booth or the buildings at LS for almost an hour to take him and if someone else comes in on a mini to check out the site, they get chased away because they had been "waiting there first". Results often in drama...

2. If monuments/events such as Oil Rigs, Cargo or raidable bases are ALREADY actively occupied by players, meaning they're already getting done, people should not attempt to join in on that and just wait for the next time it is available again. I cannot explain the amount of times I had to explain rules to someone, when I had already cleared scientists on cargo or rigs and someone just thinks it's perfectly acceptable to come on after and start looting when it's already occupied and the work is done... It's ridiculous! I just had a fight about this on EU Scourge today... Their expectation was that I should share the loot with them even though they did not kill a single scientist.

3. This point and it is heavily open for discussion imo: Bradley and Patrol Helicopter; our admins have a very "hold hands and sing kumbaya" approach to this, saying if others took down heli or brad with you, you should share the loot. As I'm sure you can imagine, this 90% of the time ends up in an argument in chat as to who should loot how many crates. Some people will do like 2% dmg and say "Ok I damaged it, I get a crate now." I personally do not even attempt to touch the heli or bradley if it's already getting done; simply because I don't want to get into this debate and I don't want to share the loot if I did 90% of the dmg... I think it's common sense but most people will lack that and that's why we need clear rules about this too.

 

Anyways... We didn't need these rules revamped, re-explained or reinforced this badly before because playerbase was pretty much the same for quite a while... But now we do... we have A LOT of new players and it's A PAIN to deal with them...

Sorry... Long ass post, I got nothing else to do in this pandemic. Been working from home-office since March, Rust is my hobby now. Rofl... x'D

 

 

[Aurora]

TL;DR 
1. Participate in moderation, regardless of your role.
2. Report problem players via website link or Discord #help to ensure admins are aware. 
3. Submit an application 

 

4 hours ago, Ouchmousie said:

Hi Aurora,
I cannot agree that I am thrilled to see so many new players because I feel like the RustEZ servers aren't equipped to handle such a surge of new players in terms of short staff (lack of admin presence) and especially lack of clarity in the rules.

Thank you for taking time to give feedback!  Unfortunately, I can't make people submit an application to join staff and help the community out in an admin role. 

I get that not everyone wants to volunteer their "leisure/fun game time" and wear an admin hat, but letting players know the rules, helping new players out, answering questions and reporting problem players is something everyone can do - regardless of their role.  When players participate in the moderation, new players catch on and problem players are weeded out much faster.  

And yeah -- there will always be players that don't get it. If you see it happening and you want to help the community, report them (see below). I can say with certainty that admins would rather be informed of these players (so they can follow up on it and take the appropriate action) than to be unaware of the player or situation.

Quote

Players should not camp concentrated loot areas (LS/Bradley, Oil Rig, Patrol Helicopter, Raidable Bases etc.) So this point is clear enough imo but it could still be improvied to make it completely idiot-proof because people are still (even though spawn of Brad is randomized) camping on top of the ticket booth or the buildings at LS for almost an hour 

The rule is no camping. If you are aware this is happening, take a minute of your  time to report the player(s) to ensure admins on your server are aware. Don't assume they already know about it -- assume they don't and report it. 

• Speak with an admin in game if one is online
• Use our Discord: #help @(insert server tag here) PlayerName is camping Brad at Location.
• You can also use the Report a Player link or file a ticket on the site if you prefer to report the player privately. 

4 hours ago, Ouchmousie said:

2. If monuments/events such as Oil Rigs, Cargo or raidable bases are ALREADY actively occupied by players, meaning they're already getting done, people should not attempt to join in on that and just wait for the next time it is available again.

Public monuments and events are server-wide events in public spaces and typically aren't meant to be soloed. If others want to participate there's nothing you can do about it – they want to have fun, the same as you. Compromise is a big part of playing on a community server.  

- If players join and participate: share the loot. Most players do. If they don't  report them.
- If players join and take the loot w/o participating (or fires one arrow kind of deal and say "BUT I HELPED" and snags the crates) , report them.
- If players are being greedy and claiming (hogging) events and not letting others participate, report them.

Hope this helped answer some of your questions.

[Ouchmousie]

12 hours ago, Aurora said:

Public monuments and events are server-wide events in public spaces and typically aren't meant to be soloed. If others want to participate there's nothing you can do about it – they want to have fun, the same as you. Compromise is a big part of playing on a community server.  

- If players join and participate: share the loot. Most players do. If they don't  report them.
- If players join and take the loot w/o participating (or fires one arrow kind of deal and say "BUT I HELPED" and snags the crates) , report them.
- If players are being greedy and claiming (hogging) events and not letting others participate, report them.

Hope this helped answer some of your questions.

Hi Aurora,

Thanks for your time. I agree with a lot of points from your original reply but there are some points that need to be disected further. As you know toxicity levels have gone way up with the surge of new players. No matter how much we as a community would like to help moderate and explain rules when admins are missing, this often results in a war in chat with people who know the rules vs the ones who will start roasting you for telling them the rules and they will resort to that idiotic statement "BUT THIS IS RUST"... Hapenned to me quite a lot of times, people don't really read or understand English really well and all it ends up coming off as is you being a b*tch basically or them twisting every single thing you say in chat.

We need the above points somewhere as part of the official FAQ and in more detail because English is not everyone's first language and they just won't understand it with such a vague point. I understand what you're saying but especially the red highlighted point can get real unclear real fast.

I'll give you an example, we did cargo yesterday... we cleared all the scientists and one guy came aboard wanting to loot after everything was killed already. His expectation was that it is perfectly normal to loot cargo when he had not killed a single scientist. I told him in voice, this isn't how it works and started explaining rules in global chat again for the millionth time that day, you can imagine at this point I am tired of explaining these things to people. Him and a few others insisted that I'm obligated to share loot with them and that I shouldn't be greedy... I mean why should I share if I killed all the scientists, looting is half the fun.

With Bradley or Heli it's easy to see who did how much dmg, you can go console and do combatlog or get an admin to help you but you can imagine there's no actual way to measure who did dmg and who deserves loot with rigs and cargo. For these specific instances (cargo and rigs) there should be an actual rule that says first come first serve, if it's already occupied take the next one... you guys need to come up with a solution that does not result in the regular players getting roasted for explaining rules in chat... This happens so often and you can imagine I don't want to be explaining rules 5000 times a day, this should be written down somewhere in the FAQ that I can link in chat and say "go there and read".

Sorry for the long post again, I'm OCD and I work well with rules, I don't like it when people just take advantage of the absence of admins and will just go off on you using that opportunity when you try to explain to them and I don't want go on a reporting spree every time someone is being disrespectful or breaking the rules, that must get tedious for the admins as well....

[AlexaNightfire]

Everything that Aurora has explained so far in this thread  is awesome and helps a lot, thanks! But I do still have to agree with Ouchmousie in that there are quite a few grey areas left up to interpretation, and a little more clarification could be useful, perhaps by adding more to the FAQ. I personally have seen some of these grey areas be abused, and they lead to most of the conflicts I see when playing: people arguing whether or not what they did or what someone else did was against the rules.

I love that there is a definition for camping now in the FAQ, but I still think it needs a little work. I am going to attempt to explain why I find the following rule confusing and ambiguous, which I think is leading to a lot of conflicts at monuments with loot, camping, and spawn timing. I will also explain why I think perhaps a rule and definition on spawn timing will help as well.

Here is the current rule as shown at the following link:

https://rustez.com/faq/question/68-can-i-camp-in-loot-areas/

“Camping is when a player, or their team, loots and then logs out or remains inactive (AFK or idles) in concentrated loot areas and returns to active gameplay to take said loot when it respawns.”

Depending on how you read it and interpret the commas and grammar, there are at least two different ways to understand this rule, making it confusing to someone who is using it as a reference as to what gameplay is and is not acceptable. There are also a lot of common situations that are not covered by this rule, leaving players to infer for themselves what is and is not acceptable, leading to conflict, and potential abuse of these grey areas.

————————————————————————————————————

First interpretation:

“Camping is when a player, or their team, loots and then logs out or remains inactive (AFK or idles) in concentrated loot areas and returns to active gameplay to take said loot when it respawns.”

The way I interpret it: A player/team has looted a monument. They then log out at said monument, only to return to active gameplay to take the loot again when it respawns. OR A player/team has looted a monument. They then remain inactive (AFK or idle) at said monument, only to return to active gameplay to take loot again when it respawns.

This implies that you CANNOT do a monument twice in a row merely by logging out at the monument. It also implies that you CANNOT do a monument twice in a row by AFKing at the monument waiting for it to respawn. However a reader can still infer from it, due to its ambiguity, that you CAN get to a monument (i.e. Brad at launch site), find out it has not been done yet or is not yet available, wait around on the rooftops, and do it when it spawns in, as you have not done it twice in a row. A reader can also infer that you CAN do monuments twice, three times, four times plus in a row, as long as you are not logging out at it or AFKing at it.

————————————————————————————————————

Second interpretation:

“Camping is when a player, or their team, loots and then logs out or remains inactive (AFK or idles) in concentrated loot areas and returns to active gameplay to take said loot when it respawns.”

The way I interpret it: A player/team has looted a monument. They then log out at said monument, only to return to active gameplay to take the loot again when it respawns.This is not allowed. A second scenario is directly included in this interpretation of the definition: a player/team cannot remain inactive (AFK or idling) in concentrated loot areas, regardless of whether or not they just looted it.

This implies that you CANNOT do a monument twice in a row merely by logging out at the monument. It also implies that you CANNOT wait around (AFK or idling), regardless of whether or not you just looted the monument. A reader can also infer that you CAN do monuments twice, three times, four times plus in a row, as long as you are not logging out at it or AFKing at it. This interpretation implies that just waiting around is not allowed as well. However it is still ambiguous: what constitutes AFK or idling? For example, can a player/team wait around on the rooftops of launch site for Brad to respawn, if they are jumping around chatting, looting barrels, and therefore technically not AFK? Are you only allowed to wait around if actively engaging in looting or a puzzle?

————————————————————————————————————

One problem with both of these interpretations of this rule is that they do not cover one problem that I find leads to a LOT of conflicts and monument/event-hogging: spawn timing. I think that if a definition and rule on spawn timing is also created, and made publicly available, it will greatly decrease the amount of conflicts with monuments, once the rule is widespread and known.

My definition of spawn timing:

Spawn timing is when you are aware of a schedule of when loot resets at a monument/event, and you abuse such schedule by doing one or more of the following:

1. waiting by being AFK or idling at a monument and only returning to active gameplay when the timer goes off to signify that the loot has reset; 

2. logging off at a monument and only logging back on when the timer goes off to signify that the loot has reset;

3. placing a sleeping bag (or home location) by a monument. Have the monument reset schedule on a timer and either:

a. be online, pausing your gameplay to spawn/teleport at the sleeping bag/home location immediately (or almost immediately) by said monument/event as it respawns

b. be offline, logging in just before the monument/event respawns, and then spawning/teleporting to the sleeping bag/home location immediately (or almost immediately) by said monument/event as it respawns.

The third part of the spawn timing definition is not covered at all in the current rule on camping, therefore leaving up for use and abuse by players.

With both of my interpretations of the current rule on camping, a player can read and infer that since there is no mention of spawn timing, it is completely allowed and within their rights to do so. This is mostly an issue at garrisons on the modded servers, as they spawn on a schedule, and only in certain locations, but can happen at other timed monuments as well (rigs, any monument puzzle.) 

I have personally seen a few players mention openly in chat how they spawn time garrisons by placing sleeping bags at every location, timing when it spawns, spawning/teleporting to their nearest /home, and then taking garrison before anyone else has a chance to react or breathe! How is that in any way fair to a regular player who is following rules and not looking for grey areas in the current rules to abuse? Especially if people using the spawn timing technique do it twice, three times, four times plus in a row? Some players have also created techniques for garrison so that even if someone else does show up to try to help/participate, they are blocked from doing so, and/or unable to get any loot if they do use explosives to try to help. This definitely needs to be addressed, as I feel goes completely against the friendly community standards that most of us are trying to achieve on RustEZ servers.

One thing that has helped a lot is how Death changed the Brad and Heli spawn timers to be random. Since there is now more randomness as to the timing between event spawns, it means spawn timing more of a non-issue in most scenarios for server events. But for events/monuments that are still on a timed reset/spawn schedule, like the garrison as mentioned above, spawn timing is still very much abused and very unfair to those who do not use it, as it means it is near impossible for a player who is not abusing it to get to a garrison in time to help.

————————————————————————————————————

One last thing: Aurora I LOVE the last part of your post and just wanted to highlight it further:

Quote

19 hours ago, Aurora said:

Public monuments and events are server-wide events in public spaces and typically aren't meant to be soloed. If others want to participate there's nothing you can do about it – they want to have fun, the same as you. Compromise is a big part of playing on a community server.  

- If players join and participate: share the loot. Most players do. If they don't  report them.
- If players join and take the loot w/o participating (or fires one arrow kind of deal and say "BUT I HELPED" and snags the crates) , report them.
- If players are being greedy and claiming (hogging) events and not letting others participate, report them.

 

 

I have not gone into the issue of loot sharing in my post, as I think Aurora’s explanation above is perfect. Perhaps it could be added to the FAQ as well? 

————————————————————————————————————

In short, while having the current definition of camping in the FAQ helps, I find it is still ambiguous and up to a few different interpretations, so some clarification/rewriting could go a long way to help. I think adding a rule/FAQ about spawn timing would do wonders to help as well. As Aurora said, it is incredibly important that we all take the initiative to report if we feel that someone is breaking a rule or not properly sharing loot, so that we can all continue working together to make the community awesome and positive! Thanks for reading!  

[Geri_Atric]

Literally EVERY time I go to visit Brad there is someone waiting for it. So obviously there is no "no camping" rule enforcement. Literally EVERY time I go to do cargo someone boards it after I have it cleared and am waiting for the last crates to spawn, so obviously there is no "event participation" rule enforcement.

(not trying to pick on anyone here) "Events are not meant to be soloed" sounds like a opinion. Or an easy way to get out of rule enforcement. I play a solo game, so I like to do monuments as a solo, but I am now forced to go with a group? Even when I do take others along, there will inevitably be a loot grabber(s) come along after the fact and grab loot.

As far as reporting these things, every time I do I get the same thing, "they are community events". So again, the "rules" are not really rules, the are subject to interpitation by players and admins. Unfortunatly I have seen some creative interpitation depending on the "popularity" of certain players in some admins eyes.

When I/we go to an "event" and start it (posting it in chat) we then should be able to finish it, as we can not PVP to prevent a counter raid.

[TiffDust]

in my experience;
 
on one rustez server a player asked as they waited for brad and he wasn't there, they'd do barrels etc. they were told by admin they could wait around 10mins, but if brad was 25+mins off, they'd be better off coming back later to try again. i asked if it was camping to wait around (looking for some clarification, so i don't get in trouble ) and an admin said that people should be considerate of others. love it, but i see what you did there
 

on another rustez server, a player waited the full reset time for brad (informing in chat to everyone that they are doing so,  they missed out on doing brad as they said they went afk for a sec and they then said they'd wait another full reset.) Community told them that was camping, Admin quoted the camping rules from the site, everyone reading chat understood that to mean it wasn't camping because they hadn't logged off, they could wait around for brad.

[Ouchmousie]

Yeah so obviously this is all a mess and I agree 100% with everything Geri said.

Especially the Scourge servers are having so much trouble following the rules.

[BloodyBaroness]

That's the nail right on the head. We are being told over and over to "report it" ,  but that's not the problem here. Players have been reporting it and the rulings have been inconsistent, open to interpretation, or so slow in coming the offense can't be "verified" and therefore is let slide. 

That's why I asked for specifically a clear definition of what is considered camping, because it's clear that players and staff have wildly different interpretations of camping. 

 

 

[Sapnu puas]

Some people who come on the server aren't even aware that a website exists let alone a FAQ with rules. We can help direct people there but it's pointless if nothing is mentioned clearly in there. And by clearly I mean super clear for non-English speakers, in a simplified way with no room for interpretation. The amount of time we get scrutinized in chat for pointing the rules out and explaining them is ruining our gaming experience massively and we have been on these servers for several years now.... Lots of points Mousie, Geri, Baroness and Alexa have made are spot on in any case. It shouldn't be so hard to introduce a detailed list of rules on the website that we can refer people to so that regular players don't have to worry about playing police while trying to enjoy the game... I don't understand why it is not an option. It saves the staff and the playerbase lots of time that is being wasted on debating...

[Ouchmousie]

Sorry to add to this but it is a daily issue... I work full time, 40 hours a week, I stop work around 4:30-5pm and by that time all I want to do is (well ideally meet with my friends and get pissed but due to the pandemic that's not an option anymore so) play Rust... Go do whatever it has to offer at the time without having to feel guilty because someone had been camping brad for 20 minutes and all I did was fly in with a mini and killed it. Literally happened not an hour ago where I got shit from a player who was apparently waiting on him and when I link the rules I get more back talk. I don't want back talk... I want people to just not moan and whine because they're not allowed to break the rules otherwise I'm going to start breaking the rules and steal every loot or camp every monument... See how that works??? Two can play that game, but here we are good little kiddies following server rules and having to put up with the retaliation that comes with it too. Just put some clear list of rules. I don't feel like getting off work and then have to deal with keyboard warriors and drama in global all night long...

Pffff having to take time out of my work-free evening to type out this was taxing...

[BloodyBaroness]

I agree 100%. 

It's not fun getting whined at and being put in a corner when you are the one trying to follow the rules. It's frustrating when you are just trying to have fun, but end up being an info box when really proactive staff should be engaging the rules issues. 

So I know the obvious question/statement from the admins is going to be "Did you report it?" 

Edited January 25, 2021 by BloodyBaroness

[Death]

These issues go beyond poorly written rules and an out of reach FAQ. This is a failure of the core mechanics of the game not being able to support this many players at once. This is an issue that will be resolved quickly and to the best of my ability.

I would have liked to have already resolved some of the bigger issues, but most of my time has been dedicated to keeping the servers online and fixing instability issues. On top of fleshing out game mechanics, I'll see that an accessible faq is made in-game, so we don't have to defer players to the website.

I'll also be updating server rules to make them a bit clearer and less open to interpretation. Thanks to all of the amazing feedback. I will use this information to improve upon how we handle reports in the future.

[BloodyBaroness]

Thank you @Death

It's challenging to find balance for some of the game features on PvE and I respect what you are trying to accomplish. 

The sudden explosion of Rust players caught a lot of people off guard, and created problems for staff and players alike. It put a big spotlight on issues that might have been slightly under the radar/lesser impact prior. 

I really appreciate the time taken to engage this issue and work on a plan to improve it going forward. 

 

[Ouchmousie]

The number of times in a day I have to explain what no camping means to utter idiots is so much on the rise I can't even... I don't have the energy. People don't seem to have the intelligence level to comprehend why a person who never camps is always going to be at a disadvantage over someone who does.

[GREENG1ANT]

1 hour ago, Ouchmousie said:

The number of times in a day I have to explain what no camping means to utter idiots is so much on the rise I can't even... I don't have the energy. People don't seem to have the intelligence level to comprehend why a person who never camps is always going to be at a disadvantage over someone who does.

The issue with monument camping has been alleviated by quite a lot, I will say. The update by FP that kills puzzle sleepers and active admins have lent to quelling the issue by quite a bit. While I doubt the issue will ever be %100 dealt with, active players that get reported by members of the community are far less likely to keep up the monument camping. I do agree though, it can be quite frustrating to get into arguments with people when you clearly catch them camping. Especially multiple times.

[Pepega]

I just want to add my part in to this discussion, most of the problematic issues have been discussed already though so i won't go further on them.

What my issue is is that there are a number of people who like to 'claim' public events (e.g. garrison, bradley, cargo ship, patrol heli). The problem with this is obviously that people are unwilling to share the loot at all. They will express their opinions in chat on how you're not allowed to 'steal' their public event and even in some instances had threats against me on how i'm  going to get banned for participating in such an event without their permission.

The argument that comes up to me the most is always "I/we  were here first"

 

I didn't play for long enough on this server to know where this issue stems from but i think that it could only come from 2 things:

• They genuinly don't know that a public event is meant for the public
• They're acting ignorant

 

Remember that these points that I am giving are NOT about looting. Looting is an entirely different thing where a public event has already been completed and someone just comes by to reap the rewards.

I personally am always willing to share loot with any members that join a public event and I believe if everyone just did this that there would be a lot less toxicity overall in the server.

 

 

Edited February 14, 2021 by Pepega
grammar

[rubiks-q-bert]

Just another reason why I left for a smaller server where the admins can handle the workload. Hasn't been any camping at all. Custom raid base events. Just nice and peaceful all around.